Note From the Base

Senator Kyl:

During your time in office, you have been a staunch advocate for border security and true immigration reform and have faithfully put the interests of the American people first.  You have been a strong adherent to fair, principled immigration policies that support the rule of law and reward those who seek to play by those rules.  Above all, you have firmly opposed any plan to grant amnesty to millions of illegal aliens who have broken our laws.

Americans overwhelmingly oppose any attempt to reward those who have illegally entered this country with a pathway to citizenship.  From higher crime rates, to overcrowded classrooms and emergency rooms, the American people acutely feel the impact of illegal immigration.  Moreover, they recognize that without a commitment from their elected representatives to secure our borders, enforce our immigration laws and maintain the rule of law, the American quality of life will continue to decline.

Recent events surrounding the terrorist plot to attack Fort Dix in New Jersey illustrate the connection between rampant, unchecked illegal immigration, the inability of our government to effectively screen applicants applying for legal entry and the threat to our national security posed by a broken immigration system.  Granting amnesty to millions of illegal aliens with unknown backgrounds would only further serve to burden our system and make it that much more difficult to fix.

We know you understand how important it is to protect and preserve American national interests.  Thus, it is with great concern that we observe your integral role in crafting an amnesty plan in concert with the Bush Administration.  We urge you to abandon these efforts.

President Bush’s approval ratings are at historic lows and Congress is now controlled by Democrats.  Republican support for amnesty in an effort to appease a lame-duck president and provide political cover to a slim and tenuous Democratic majority will only help to cement that Democratic majority and serve to further destroy the remaining vestiges of loyalty within the grassroots activists comprising the heart and soul of our party.

The decision you make on this critical issue will have a grave impact on future generations.  We ask you to put our nation and its security first.  We ask you to keep your promise to the people of Arizona and oppose illegal alien amnesty in all forms.

Sincerely,

Representative Russell Pearce
Representative Mark Anderson
Representative Trish Groe
Representative Bob Robson
Representative John Kavanagh
Representative Andy Biggs
Representative Eddie Farnsworth
Representative Jerry Weiers
Representative Judy Burges
Representative Rick Murphy
Representative Bob Stump
Representative Tom Boone
Representative John McComish
Representative Jim Weiers
Representative Warde Nichols
Representative John Nelson
Speaker Jim Weiers
Senator Linda Gray
Senator Chuck Gray
Senator Jack Harper
Senator Karen Johnson
Senator Pam Gorman
Senator Ron Gould
Senator Thayer Verschoor
Senator Robert Blendu
Don Goldwater – Former Arizona Republican Gubernatorial Candidate
Tom Ross – Chairman, Navajo County Republican Committee

Comments

[Gerry Mander]

When I see a letter signed by the likes of Pearce, Harper, Gould and Goldwater, I tune out. I hope Senator Kyl does too.

[ann]

A very shortsighted and narrow thought process would eliminate the possibility that perhaps there is something to be taken from this letter based on the signers alone. Senator Kyl would do well to consider the way this plays back home and not just the current mood inside the beltway.

He has emerged as a very powerful Republican member this session and may hold the balance of votes in his hand. I am less than enamored with some of the names on the list, but they do represent some very strongly felt feelings among the voters of Arizona who elected them, even if narrowly, to the positions they hold.

[Gerry Mander]

"...they do represent some very strongly felt feelings among the voters of Arizona who elected them..."

Senator Kyl serves as our representative in Washington, not our delegate.

And strong feelings do not necessarily result in sound public policy. This letter makes that clear.

"A very shortsighted and narrow thought process would eliminate the possibility that perhaps there is something to be taken from this letter based on the signers alone."

You've heard the phrase, "consider the source," right? The signers' own argument is undercut by who they are. Those I cited lack credibility and some have used this issue to prop up their careers. If it weren't for illegal immigration, Don Goldwater would simply be the guy who used to set up bleachers for events at the state capitol.

[Walter]

"Thus, it is with great concern that we observe your integral role in crafting an amnesty plan in concert with the Bush Administration."

Based on an article in the Arizona Republic? I thought we weren't supposed to believe what was in that rag? Talk about going overboard.

For once, I'll go along with Napolitano:
Democratic Gov. Janet Napolitano said Thursday she's "not surprised" to hear about Kyl's role in negotiations, but she's wary that he hasn't changed his spots on the issue.

[Mark]

I hope Kyl sticks it to them. Yes we all agree that our borders must be secured to ensure that enemy infiltrators do not enter our nation illegally. But to act as if these poor aliens have committed some great crime is laughable. In fact we should celebrate their spirit - they will do whatever they can to be an American even if it means illegal entry, a deadly hike through the desert, working under the table, and constant fear of deportation. I admire anyone who agrees with me that America is such a great nation. If I was born 3 hours south of here I would walk through fire to be an American. If I wasn't able to get to legal papers I would risk life and limb to get into this country, as so many aliens have done.

I haven't even mentioned how crucial it is to have a constant influx of immigrants to our economy and domestic government programs. You can bemoan the fact that Americans aren't having enough children but we can and should be grateful that we are able to have so many hard working immigrants willing to do whatever it takes to be an American.

The worst thing the Republican Party could do is to be perceived as anti-immigrant. And some of these members of my party look like they are foaming at the mouth over this issue – over a crime that is absolutely no worse than speeding on the way to the hospital. Instead we should be helping these aliens become Americans, welcome them into our party and protect them against the sedition and lies from the socialist democrats.

[Darien]

I wonder if Mr. Pearce even bothered to share this letter with people whose names he added. Some of them have endorsed McCain's immigration plan, a reasonable plan that is not aligned with Mr. Pearce's more unrealistic and xenophobic rants.

[RDH]

Well, From the comments regarding illegal immigration I sense that not only are we faced with 12 million un-invited guests, but we have many Americans who simply think that it is OK to pick and choose which laws we can suimmarily violate. I do so look forward to being able to pick the laws I can disobey with impunity. You will not like my choices.

[ron]

Greg, I noticed you titled this from 'the base'.

Well it is base - but not the kind that you might think.

I don't think that this letter represents 'the base' as several other commentators have noted.

[Tim]

Conservatives and moderates are both on that list. Outside of the left-wing fringe, it is hard to imagine that the moderates and conservatives, added together, do not constitute the base.

The post is accurately titled...

Now, let's see what Kyl will do now that his election is over? We all hope it is the right thing. The anarchy that Mark proposes where we all obey only the laws we personally agree with or like or are convenient at the time is lunacy. There are a great many laws being broken at any one time by any of those here illegally. We as Americans, and as members of this nation of immigrants, will always be well-served by welcoming those who have played by the rules and waited. Handing citizenship to 15+ million criminals will not strengthen this country.

[logical1]

It is late here on the East Coast so forgive me if I have a typo or four...

Mark,
I have to argue with your thought that these illegal immigrants will do anything to be an American.

They will do anything to be in this country. They will do anything to take our money, send it back over the border, use and abuse our welfare and already stretched-thin health care systems.

MOST that come here illegally have NO desire to be American. Legal or not. If they did, they would make an effort to assimilate.

[Ann]

Gerry,

To consider the way it would play back home is consistent with being a representative NOT a delegate. He should represent the best interests of the citizens he serves and remember the words he spoke that brought many to his support. The word amnesty was not in his dialogue, at least as far as support is concerned. The process of electing our representative involves the candidate exposing his or her positions and then urging the support of voters for their candidacy based on that. To say one thing in the heat of a campaign and then do another while in office is politically dangerous, and not just in terms of reelection. Unless the original position was not one Sen. Kyl believed in and it was just a ruse to accommodate the base and gain support, then he could be advocating for something he knows is not only bad for Arizona but all of America.

Don Goldwater, or anyone else for that matter, if they are a voter and they worked to help elect Sen. Kyl they have the right to let him know where they stand on this present issue. I did not and would not vote for the man, but that doesn’t mean he can’t ever be right or that the majority of the group who signed this letter do not have a vested interest in the immigration law under consideration and a position of accountability to the citizens of Arizona to stand up for our state.

Throwing the baby out with the bath water is the best way I can sum up your attitude. Considering the source is a fine and often wise attitude to take. But this is more than one source and it is more than one school of thought, the mix of conservatives and moderates is impressive; even if there are a couple also rans and never were’s in the mix.

[Joe]

Seems that 70% of Arizona voters from the last election would have agreed with the sentiments in the letter. Do they count as the base?

[Carol]

Let us not forget that the last comprehensive immigration reform bill, IRCA of 1986, was passed after just as much wrangling and hand-wringing as we are witnessing now. It was signed by Ronald Reagan because it was thought to be a "one-time flush of the system" that would deliver a dual result of addressing the unfairness of people living under color of law combined with an attempt to realistically provide an unskilled labor pool for farm work, construction, and labor-intensive businesses. What it did not accomplish was an end to the crush of illegal immigration and sound arguments could be made that IRCA exacerbated and increased the rate. IRCA did fill the labor need for awhile, but as soon as people can improve their lot in life, they do, and shift to skilled jobs leaving the unskilled behind.

In his optimistic way, President Reagan and the leaders of the time wanted to try something that on paper seemed like it would address the dual goals. The law of unintended consequences plagued IRCA's implementation and it failed as a model. Lesson learned.

21 years later, human nature has not changed. Senator Kyl must govern wisely in these next few weeks as forces align to either pass or fail to pass another comprehensive reform law. This letter is a firm reminder, and is to be commended for its civil tone. That civility must be retained, and compassion added as well, for the very real people that this all affects.

[ron]

Tim wrote:

"There are a great many laws being broken at any one time by any of those here illegally."

My comment: And we could add 'and by those here legally.' The accused Baseline rapist and the accused shooters from last year were both American citizens - even though som candidates for political office wanted us to believe otherwise.

"We as Americans, and as members of this nation of immigrants, will always be well-served by welcoming those who have played by the rules and waited. Handing citizenship to 15+ million criminals will not strengthen this country."

Well, these are nice sentiments but don't help the discussion. I would say that we are all well-served by the illegals who wash our dishes, change our hotel linens, wash and repair the Valley Metro buses, who helped build the University of Phoenix stadium, cut the lawns, stock shelves of stores and cut the lettuce we had as our salad last night. We are also well-served by the over $11 billion they have put into our Social Security system which they will never claim.

When the Chambers of Commerce of the nation discourage employer sanctions and the closing of day labor stations (and sometimes actively campaign against such laws and enforcement), you have to ask who is really is actively opening the welcome gate at the border.

Why hand 15 million people their citizenship so they can actually take advantage what their sweat is building in the community? We really don't want these people to cash in on their sweat equity, do we?

The 'play by the rules and wait' line is great if the line wasn't so long and the quota so small. Last year, the US govt opened the line up again (called the 'Green Card Lottery) between Oct and Dec , 2006 - about 8 weeks. How many people went to the US embassy in their respective countries and got in line? 6.4 million (about 10 million when you include dependents).

Just get in line - here are the caps for 2008 for US immigration for employer-intiated worker visas (my math says about 120,000 if you included master-degree or above educated persons)

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=138b6138f898d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCRD&vgnextchannel=91919c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD

Is it any wonder people go through the desert?

Yup, get in line (or send them home).

[ron]

This is some more information from the official US government website on the lottery which occurred in 2003 -

US Green Card Lottery DV 2005 Results Announced

22 July 2004

The winners of the United States DV-2005 diversity lottery have already been notified by the Kentucky Consular Center. Approximately 100,000 people from countries with low rates of immigration to the United States have won the DV 2005 lottery and can now lodge an immigrant visa application. The U.S. Department of State estimates that about half the number of these winners will not pursue their cases and therefore the quota of 50,000 immigrant visas will be filled for fiscal year 2005.

There were over 9.5 million valid entries received for the DV-2005 lottery between 1 November 2003 to 30 December 2003. Winners were selected at random spread out among six geographic regions, not to exceed seven percent of the native-born population. In order for DV lottery winners to gain an immigrant visa to the US, they must provide evidence of a high school degree or show two years of work experience in a job that requires at least two years of training or experience. Winners must successfully obtain their immigrant visas to the US by 30 September 2005 or they will lose their DV status and would have to apply again for next year's lottery.

Take note which country is not allowed to participate in the lottery:

People born in the following countries were not eligible to participate in the DV-2005 programme: Canada, China (excluding HKSAR and Taiwan), Colombia, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Haiti, India, Jamaica, Mexico, Pakistan, the Phillippines, Russia, South Korea, United Kingdom (except Northern Ireland) and its dependent territories, and Vietnam.

Get in line folks but not if you are from Mexico or Canada or...

[RDH]

"I would say that we are all well-served by the illegals who wash our dishes, change our hotel linens, wash and repair the Valley Metro buses, who helped build the University of Phoenix stadium, cut the lawns, stock shelves of stores and cut the lettuce we had as our salad last night." I would disagree. Those very functions were being adequately filled years before the large influx of illegals into this country.They were done by Americans. Trust me when I say, they (illegals) can undercut your salary and take your job also.

"We are also well-served by the over $11 billion they have put into our Social Security system which they will never claim."Their "payments" into the Social Security system are via forged, illegal documents they use to acquire work. Are you proposing that they also be financially awarded Social Security benefits for breaking the law?

You sir have offered nothing as to a remedy for the presence of 12+ million criminals in this nation illegally, except to simply accept the lawlessness and agree to more of the same. I see such a view as more of a pressing problem than the current over abundance of illegals themselves. If anarchy is what you want, anarchy is what you will have.

[Hugh]

RDH says "Those very functions were being adequately filled years before the large influx of illegals into this country.They were done by Americans. Trust me when I say, they (illegals) can undercut your salary and take your job also. "

Can you explain to me why we're currently at 4.5% unemployment rate? It really doesn't look like they're taking any of our jobs at all.

[Tim]

Ron, half-baked arguments aren't helping you. Mark wants to follow just the laws he likes and Ron thinks that so long as legal residents are breaking laws we can't go after illegal residents who are breaking laws. What lunacy...

Then he cites the diversity lottery to show why Mexicans cross the border, insinuating that they have to because they aren't even allowed to participate in the lottery. Yet if he had read his own post he would see that the lottery is ONLY open to countries WITH LOW RATES OF IMMIGRATION to the USA. Mexico isn't allowed in the lottery because they have a HIGH RATE of legal immigration. We let in lots and lots of Mexicans, but not enough for Ron, who apparently wants to let them all in so they can do his laundry and pick his lettuce. Shame on him for that non-sensical drivel...

[RDH]

Hugh,
That's a red herring and you know it. Just a few years ago that unemployment was considerably greater yet the presence of illegals and their social burden on the taxpayers was just as prevelent. And can you imagine an unemployment rate of 1 to 2 percent? If one can believe the rhetoric from the politicians, the illegals are "living in the shadows" and do not appear in any of the data you are using. That means we would be at the same or less unemployment if the illegals completely disappeared from the landscape tomorrow.

Your position, and I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm reading too much into it, is that the illegals that are coming here illegally from South of the border and elsewhere are simply filling a void left by a lack of legal workers. If that were the case then they whould be able to demand equal compensation and benefits as do legal workers, and that is far from the case. The United States Chamber of Commerce would pull it's support for this invasion in a heartbeat if it's members had to pay the prevailing rate and benefits for illegal labor that they do for legal workers. The US CofC and it's members nationwide have been exploiting the plight of these people for decades with absolute collusion from our government. It is time for the charade to end and those who put more importance on their "bottom line" over to the sovereignty of this nation need to be held accountable.

[ron]

I didn't offer a solution - only further analysis of the situation.

Here is the solution:

1. Expand the worker visa program - there already is a 'guest worker' program - see the link I posted. Obviously with a 4.5% unemployment rate we are in need of more help esp. in specific fields like nursing. Apparently the hospitality industry is also in need of assistance so let's make what they are doing now legal and more user friendly so they can find the help they need. Apparently there is a shortage of iron workers which why the contractors of the University of Phoenix stadium used illegal help.

2. Many illegals already own homes, businesses which employ people and are variously connected into the community in very concrete ways. The fastest way to drive down home values iin Maricopa County would be to force all these folks to sell their homes. Those who are renting and supporting the economy in that way would leave and drive down house prices some more. All of this would make bankers and mortgage companies very nervous. If we decide to send all the folks back, I would suggest dumping all of the following stocks off your portfolio - house builders, banking/financial institutions, hosptiality industry inc. Las Vegas based economic units. The Bank of America has already figured this out and is inviting illegals to bank with them. The banking lobby has a large stake in the outcome of this debate. So some form of program which legitiimizes their existence in the country is needed. Or else just let things go as they are - except their kids are going to end up being unable to go college, etc and will end up in 'dead end' jobs and not contributing to the economy and there will be further teacher and nursing shortages as well as other professional fields. The current educated class is not birthing enough children to replace themselves in the professional market. So the law of unintended consequences would kick in if we fill up the buses and sent the illegals home.

Third, Mexico and central America need to decide how they are going to assist themselves to strengthen their middle class. Right now the monthly flow of US dollars into their economies by illegals in this country is keeping those economies afloat. There is not incentive for those governments to figure out ways to create viable economies while they watch their GOP stay up through through Western Union (who by the way also is a big player in this debate - why would they want to lose those dollars through some resolution of this issue?) Revisiting NAFTA and its unintended consequences on the economies of Mexico and Central America would be a good start.

There are some solutions to the issue - but they are not as simple as 'send them all back' which is what a non-amnesty approach would suggest.

[ron]

RDH, you noted, ""We are also well-served by the over $11 billion they have put into our Social Security system which they will never claim."Their "payments" into the Social Security system are via forged, illegal documents they use to acquire work. Are you proposing that they also be financially awarded Social Security benefits for breaking the law?"

Since you asked, no, I am not proposing that they be 'financially awarded Social security benefits for breaking the law.' I am just pointing out that there is a disincentive to solve the problem in Washington when their dollars into the SS system is keeping it afloat when it would, otherwise be going into the tank. If they were not paying into it with no hope of collecting it - how do you think we will keep it going as we have borrowed against it for the last many years? You and I are being 'well served' by their sacrifice.

BTW, I came here on a green card. I decided that the anti-immigrant attitude was so strident in this country a few years ago that I should become a citizen so I didn't lose the 40 quarters I had already paid in. A side benefit is I get to vote - which I do at each election.

[ron]

Mr. Robb writes about the immigration issue in Viewpoints in the AZ Republic (5-13-07). I think the significant sentences are these two:

"Sometimes the law has to catch up to settled reality. And that's the case with the current illegal population."

I understand that those two sentences will upset those who hold to what they call the 'absolutes'.

I think Mr. Robb understands realism is more prudent sometimes than going to the grave dying for 'principles'.

[RDH]

"I decided that the anti-immigrant attitude was so strident in this country a few years ago....." Once again you use the straw argument that so many "open borders" proponents use. Americans as a whole are not "anti-immigrat", they are anti "illegal" immigrant.Most fully appreciate that this is a nation born of immigrants. Some day those of you who profess to be so enlightened will please enlighten the rest of us as to just what it is about "illegal" that you do not comprehend. We are either a nation of laws, or a nation of anarchy. Take your pick but please spare us the fence riding on this issue.

By the way, I am not a beneficiary of Social Security and will not be. I saw long ago that the whole system was a Ponzi scheme that was sold to a disallusioned populace at a time of great challenge in this country. If the laws of rackateering and extortion were equally applied then those who put that program on us would be in prison. But that's another issue.

[ron]

RDH, if you read my comments carefully - not once did I say I supported illegal immigration - in fact, I pointed out how the CC of USA and others are supporting it and legitmizing it through their behaviors and lobbying.

I am a law abiding citizen and encourage others to obey the laws of the land.

The issus not 'an open border' policy - I have not advocated that in any of my comments.

That said, go and read Mr. Robb's comments again. We have 12-15 million people here who are here illegally. The issue is this, the economy has grown used to these people being here and has absorded them and their contribution.

Now what is the solution? Mr. Robb's second to last paragraph in this morning's AZ Republic defines the parameters of the solution which sound similar to my suggestions:

"That is the right immigration compromise: relative leniency toward existing illegals but a hard-headnesses about restricting and controlling future low-skilled immigration."

And then he concludes:

"Getting there, however, isn't just a matter of politics or will. There are important matters of principle on WHICH GIVE IS ALSO NECESSARY. And that's tougher." (My Emphasis)

I think Mr. Robb and I are in the same corner on this one.

And I would say that the letter drafted by Mr. Pierce and friends doesn't further the dialogue at this point. It argues for freezing principle and not working toward some form of compromise.

[ron]

RDH,

I found my reason for naturalization varified in the Pew Research on Naturalization (Growing Share of Immigrants Choosing Naturalization Jeffrey S. Passel Senior Research Associate, Pew Hispanic Center, March 28, 2007):

"Citizenship also is a qualification for some social benefits. Since 1996, many federal programs require citizenship rather than long-term residency as a condition of participating and receiving benefits. Some of those requirements were later rolled back, but many immigrants might be under the impression that they are still in place."

So when I decided to naturalize I was afraid that the attitudes toward immigration (legal and illegal) as expressed by congress and others might some day hinder me from participating in those 'social benefits' including Social Security.

My own family history is a history of fleeing persecution and seeking asylum. My elders' choice of a receptive country was determined by US policy toward immigration in the 1920s, which was a 'protectionist' policy. I am not about to trust that this country will not or could not return back to that policy. So I became a naturalized citizen.

[RDH]

Ron,
Although we may share a first name, I can see we are miles apart in our views on this issue. That's OK. Differences of opinion are not always a bad thing as long as civility in debate remains.
One point of disagreement is the position that, because the numbers of illegals already here are so large and they are such a presence in our society, that they therefore cannot be easily removed, I think is deafeatism ala the Democrats w/Iraq. As President Kennedy once said "We don't choose to do these things because they are easy, we choose to do them because they are difficult".

The 12+ million illegals in this nation did not suddenly appear all at once, and neither did their impact on our society. It was reasonably slow and insideous. The solution you seem loathe to entertain is simply a mere reversal of that same slow process. Mr. Robb and others are ready to throw in the towel without even having made an attempt to correct the wrong. And one certainly does not dissuade further violations of this nation's immigration laws by rewarding those who have already broken it. Imagine the message that sends, and it was sent when the same approach many are now advocating was implemented in 1986 .One simply cannot excuse nor justify the breaking of the laws without negative consequences.

In this debate I often use an analogy that I think is appropriate, you may disagree. If someone, uninvited, enters your home and takes things that belong to you, then the law views that act as burglery, which is a felony. I see little to no difference in the illegal situation. Now as to motive, which is often brought into the debate, few would argue that they (illegals) are simply trying to better their lot in life. I see the same motivation when a drug addict breaks into homes and steals items not theirs, and then sells them to acquire more drugs for their habit. Their actions also are simply an effort to "better their lot in life". The effects they get from their drug habit is more desirous than their present condition. Same motivation for the breaking of the law, yet we do not look at both perpertrators equally in law. Even outside the written law, there exist laws of social order. If no one chooses to abide those laws of social order, then we are simply back to the law of the jungle and only the strong survive.

I simply cannot concieve of sitting passively by and watching this nation's sovereignty, for which I served to protect and defend, be so easily trashed and discarded. I personally do not believe that our political representatives fully appreciate the visceral anger that has been seething on mainstreet America over the Federal governments total abolition of it's responsibility towards the illegal immigrant issue. When the pot does finally boil over, and it will, many will suffer far more than mere displacement. It did not have to come to this.

[Tim]

Russell Pearce says it best when he says "turn off the rides and the people will go home". Seal the border, punish employers, arrest and deport illegal aliens and the message will be received.

Show you can secure the border and then you can have a real, functioning guest worker program where willing employer and employee are matched up. Use the Kyl-Cornyn language to require that these matches take place in the home country of the applicant (again, they take themselves home so that they can come back legally).

Suddenly you've got a secure border, a real guest worker program, and those here illegally have every incentive to go home, play by the rules, and come back here legally.

In the meantime you have the added security and advantages of stemming the flow of crime and drugs into this country. You've also put the coyotes out of business and you are protecting the now-legal workers who can pay their fair share, reap the benefits, and move freely between their job in the U.S. and their home and family in their native country.

A win win for all and it will work.

Pretending we can't fix this problem is a cop-out from those who want wide open borders and as much cheap labor as our companies can use (yeah Flake, we're talking about you and your buddies Kennedy, Kolbe, Gutierrez, et al).

[ron]

The 'breaking into my house' analogy, like most analogies, has its weaknesses. The illegal didn't break into my house - he rented it. Now you are going to send him back and I will lose his rent and the bank will foreclose on me. The illegal didn't break into my house -he purchased it (Foreigners are allowed to won property in the US - but that is a policy for discussion for another day.) Now Sheriff Joe is going to take him and his family and send them back to Mexico and my house will be on the market with the 50,000 other houses on the market. I wish I hadn't taken back the paper because now it is worth less than when I sold it the first time.

I think we need to find another analogy.

ron

[ron]

RDH, I intend to keep the discussion civil :). Also I am not too worried about illegals taking my job - that's why I have two master's degrees in specialized fields that have their own self-limiting ability to absorb persons who do not meet the qualifications.

Tim, I can concur with most of your argument. I would take some exception to this sentence however: "In the meantime you have the added security and advantages of stemming the flow of crime and drugs into this country."

Drugs are an issue of supply and demand. Drugs respond to a free-market economy - dry up the demand and they dry up and their manufacturers and sellers move onto other vocations. The issue of dealing with demand is not locking up the buyers -we have been doing that since the early 80s and we have not won the war on drugs. The issue is treatment for those who use the drugs. We all know that much of the crime in Maricopa county is traced to meth use. Yet few programs exist for those who seriously want to kick the habit. The few that do exist are always full. Meanwhile we send drug abusers to prison where almost no treatment programs exist. For the money we spend in aprehending and incarcerating drug users, we could be offering world class treatment programs. The prison industry in this state thrives on crime and is its own disincentive to seeing less and not more people filling its beds. Why treat people when you know they will be back in six months and you can justify your salary and existence on the backs of these folks?

We already know that drying up the supply doesn't deal with the issue. We already tried that once - it was called prohibition.

Sending illegals back will not deal with or solve our drug problems. You did see the house on TV the other day that was being used to grow a million dollars of weed - it might of been illegals who were doing the growing - but we can't be sure - I am sure that some legal residents would be glad to step into the spot if the illegals weren't doing it (the legals were doing it before the illegals showed up - just like legals were cleaning our hotels before the illegals showed up). Obviously there is a market if some one is growing a million dollars of weed in their house. Dry up the market, I say.

[Joe]

I'm sorry to jump in here. I've been following the discussion and didn't mean to comment, but Ron's post was too interesting to pass up.

Just as Drugs are about Supply and Demand, so is immigration.

Simply put if you believe in free trade you must support immigration. If you're against immigration you must be against free trade.

Illegal immigration was a blip on the radar until NAFTA was passed in 1994. But it's basic economics that if you have capital and goods flowing across borders, labor must also flow across borders. With NAFTA, crops from the US flooded to Mexico and undercut Mexican farmers, forcing the farmworkers to go where the work is... here.

The Central American Free Trade Agreement will do the same thing, just in different countries.

There are other examples around the world. When the EU expanded to Eastern Europe, agricultural goods from Germany and France undercut the markets in Poland and Hungary, so workers just moved to the countries producing the food. The same is true in sub-Saharan Africa, between South Africa and Zimbabwe or Mozambique, even though South Africa has strict immigration laws.

Free trade=immigration. To believe otherwise is just intellectually dishonest. Jon Kyl voted for NAFTA. So did many of the other people in Congress against immigration. They also voted for CAFTA. Adam Smith would be rolling over in his grave.

[Ann]

I understand wanting to be an American, to live in the greatest country there has ever been. The children are innocent in any complicity of the situation yet they do present a serious future consequence. The current situation is not fair to anyone. Immigration numbers are managed with the purpose of controlling the mass influx of people so that the economy cannot support and maintain the population. The here and now is not all there is, tomorrow will come and what will it look like?

The children of the undocumented/illegal/new immigrants (whatever term is the current one) are in our schools by the thousands. Many of our schools are labeled failing not because they are not doing the job necessary to educate the majority of students but the accountability measures include the growth of ELL students. When Spanish is the language of their community and home, the efforts at school are severely undermined and diminished. Then when they test poorly the school is held to blame and millions of dollars will be spent to remediate the situation, tax dollars that could otherwise be spent on educating the children of legal residents. Federal law requires this and the schools have no choice.

After spending millions of tax dollars to make sure they are prepared to be a part of the American work force, a good number will have become acclimated to the way of life in America. They will want higher wages, benefits and become part of the work force in a very different way. Many will, by the second or third generation, no longer be doing the type of jobs Ron has described. They will be professionals and looking for higher paying jobs. What about the unemployment rate then? And when the majority of residents are Spanish speakers what will be the job requirements and will the English speaking children of legal residents be prepared for the new competition? We spend nothing to make sure the native born English speaking child can speak Spanish but insure the newly entered child becomes bilingual.

The amount of affinity fraud in lending and the sale of property is outrageous, adding to the foreclosure rate and decreased value of homes. Illegally obtained SS numbers used to get loans through lenders who are very well aware of the inaccuracies, Realtors who prey on Spanish speaking buyers, and others of Mexican heritage who have created a sub culture of finance and commerce abounds. Be sure, they are buying and in bulk. The amount of property bought and sold using illegal methods, unlicensed people writing contracts and making loans violating state and federal law poses a very serious risk to the property values and security of many neighborhoods. Should these lenders or the one stop shop lender-real estate-insurance agent who writes contracts for which they are not licensed be found out, the loans be declared fraudulent, the title insurance policies filed for claims (if there is any), or the abandonment of property when the legality of the ownership is questioned in a future sale; expect the cost to fall on everyone else in higher insurance policies, loan fees, lower property values, and potentially a glut of homes that have been repossessed based on illegal lending.

I would never deny every human the right to pursue a better life for themselves and their children; I do not begrudge an innocent child the best the world has to offer. But the current situation is a recipe for disaster.

[ron]

Joe, you have my thumbs up. Interesting connection between NAFTA and the increased flow of peasant populations to the US. I understand it is cheaper for a tortilla maker in Mexico city to buy Iowa corn than corn grown in her country.

Ann, you are right. I already have had my experience with the 'fraudulant real estate/appraiser/loan' enterprise. I reported the appraiser - he didn't even get his hand slapped (this was about 4 years ago).

Further more, what we are experiencing in the Southwest is the part of the largest worldwide movement of 'peasant' populations (although I have met college educated illegals as well) in history.

And about ELL. English was not my first language.

ron

[ann]

That you are bilingual is good for you and you are to be sincerely commended for your accomplishments; that we are creating a group that will move into the work force with bilingual skills while the need for bilingual speakers is unfairly increasing due to the millions of illegal immigrants yet the legal residents remain monolingual is an unfair advantage. The real number of illegal residents is probably closer to 20 million than it is to 12. The typical American family has less than 2 children per household; the typical illegal resident household has more than 2. We are not replacing ourselves through new births while they are multiplying their rate. This is not a white vs. brown thing, this is an illegal entrant from south of our border thing. The American citizen is not by definition white or Anglo; they are a person who has gained citizenship in this country legally, period.

We have created an environment where the child of illegal residents will have a better job opportunity than that of the legal resident child. By creating both the demand for Spanish speaking workers by allowing open borders and educating the child of the illegal resident, we will reduce significantly the number of jobs for the children of legal resident’s in the future. The drain on our resources to provide all the government services, taxpayer provided and supported services, such as education and heath care is substantial. The prison/court/police & fire costs are also very high. Some have paid taxes and never collected a dime of Social Security; but has anyone ever considered how much a person would need to make in order for their taxes to cover the extraordinary expense of the illegal population on our government? Then divide it by the 12 million or so they think are illegal, I bet their possible tax payment doesn’t even come close to covering the costs.

We keep our borders wide open, consider allowing over 12 million illegals to be legally absorbed in to our country, all the while we are watching our culture be changed to their culture, watch them march in our streets and demand we do what they want, educate their children to become more qualified for the future when they will be the majority and our children will do the jobs that do not require Spanish like the ones that do not require English now. Imagine this happening anywhere else in the world; it would be an outrage.

[Joe]

"Americans overwhelmingly oppose any attempt to reward those who have illegally entered this country with a pathway to citizenship."

Seems the case is actually the opposite. From http://www.pollingreport.com/immigration.htm:

"Would you favor or oppose...Creating a program that would allow illegal immigrants already living in the United States for a number of years to stay in this country and apply for U.S. citizenship if they had a job and paid back taxes" Favor: 80% Oppose: 19% Unsure: 1%

I think what you can draw from those numbers is that the solutions proposed by the extreme right (round 'em up and ship 'em out, and build a big ass wall to keep 'em out) and the extreme left (immediate amnesty for all illegals) are rejected by the overwhelming majority of voters, and they'd rather see a more sensible solution.

[ron]

Ann, you wrote, "We have created an environment where the child of illegal residents will have a better job opportunity than that of the legal resident child."

First, my first language isn't Spanish - but it is a language of scholarship in the Western tradition.

Second, I don't know what age your children are - but my children are doing fine.

Third, there is always work for those who want to work hard - and what is lacking is work ethic. There is interesting research by the Pew Research Council on the wealth of naturalized citizens verses born citizens. Most refugees when they are naturalized (after 5 years of residency) are purchasing a home. Most of us don't want to eat rice or beans for three meals a day. Nor do most of us want to work two jobs (I do by choice). Most of us don't want to sacrifice time or pleasure or anything else to get ahead. I see clients who make huge amounts more than I do who are going bankrupt! I am a naturalized citizen - the current main job I have pays me more than I have ever made in my life (and it is still in the mid-5 figure range). I worked hard to get here. Last time I looked my relative wealth put me in the top 5% in the country and for most of my working life (until about 3 years ago) I made less than $32,000 a year and my wife less than $12,000 a year. I drive a 35 year old car (my wife a 6 month old one - paid for). And I can afford some nice vacations now that the kids are out of the house. I took cable about two years ago for the first time because I bought the 'package'. I have a nice life. Many of my friends envy me - and my license plate should say, "I work".
I cut my own lawn, launder my own clothes, wash my own car. And I don't have seasons' tickets to anything. I sold and bought down a few years ago so I could invest - and the real estate market served me well a year ago. I have my own investment plan and am not counting on Uncle Sam to bail me out when I retire (but I won't turn down what he gives me).

My children have watched me do all of this - and have made many of the same prudent choices.

Got to go back to work :)

[Mark]

Tim - don't exaggerate. I do not support anarchy and of course my conscience is the ultimate decider of what law I will obey as it is for you and everyone else. I am sure you would not admit that you would obey an evil law? I am sure you would not praise Nazis who claimed they were merely following the law?

If you reread my post you will see that I acknowledge that a crime has been committed and that our borders must be secured. My comments are directed at the extremists who wish to make the crime something more or worse than it actually is. Speeding on the way to the hospital is still a crime! But the punishment should be just which is why a small fine imposed on those who violated our immigration laws will be a just remedy.

To logical1 - I was expecting a response such as yours. If what you write is not true then do you admit that your conclusion was derived from bigotry? A number of studies have been done regarding this point and all overwhelmingly support my position. The vast majority of illegal immigrants to this country greatly desire to be American citizens. And I am sorry but I cannot blame them and I find it odd that so many patriotic conservative Republicans can (which leads me to fear that some personal bigotry or racist belief motivates them).

[Tired of RINOs]

Kudos to these Republicans who are holding Senator Kyl accountable to the promises he made to the voters BEFORE he was re-elected.

This amnesty plan is an insult to the people of Arizona and these Republicans are letting Kyl know that there are consequences for his actions.

[Mr. Hong]

Illegal aliens are not immigrants, they are foreign intruders. Allowing them to stay rewards foreign criminals, penalizes law-abiding immigrants, and discriminates based on national origin. Senator Kennedy , the Democratic Party, and President Bush are anti-immigrant, let's hops Senator Kyl does not join them.

For more info go to legalimmigrantsfirst.org

[Davi Rodrigues]

So many people here seem rather oblivious to the fact that illegal aliens all end up clustered around the same opportunities and resources that American citizens and legal residents are competing for. My parents neighborhood has been overwhelmed by hundreds of them every single day. My parents, in their 70's, are now competing for the attention of the sheriff, prosecutors, county supervisors, water, sewer and safe streets to drive on. amazingly, the law enforcers have given up on the neighborhood, and only make a half assed showing when a call comes for them. I am competing against many of the illegal employers who seem to suffer no injury or prosecution for their law breaking. It has become anarchy; not free trade. The gangs come in and run them like pimps, the politicians pander to them and ignore me. The illegal vendors operate unmolested and uncharged. The area surrounding these blocks look like a ghetto now. The streets are used as toilets and trash cans in full view of everyone. They just don't have respect. We already have enough people like this here

If the illegal aliens are so good, come to my folks neighborhood and invite them to operate and live in your neighborhood. Until I see you live with this mess, you cannot speak or write from anywhere but a hypocritical platform.
Kick them out...All of them...Politicians, illegal aliens, and sympathizers.

[Jeanjeanie]

The illegals have destroyed my town. It is 85% Hispanic and living 20-30 in a house or garage. There is trash everywhere and the graffiti can hardly be kept up with. The north end of town is now a large ghetto with MS 13 members and the houses fly Mexican flags. I live in a town called Fillmore in Ventura County California. This has all happened within the last six years. Before that people didn't even lock their doors. What are you people thinking! When immigrants came years ago this country didn't have the welfare system that is does today. These illegal aliens have at least one kid a year. On the American tax dollar. Both my neighbors are illegals and each has 7 kids under 14 and 6 adults living there, and both houses are under 800 sq ft. We have to replace the whole sever system throughout the town because of the overuse of the system built for homes that should have 4-5 people in them. The over use of our existing system is pollution of the waste water into the ocean. The illegals aren't paying the cost of the new system, the owners like me, that have only 3 people per home, are!

[RDH]

Davi Rodriques and Jeanjeanie,
Surely the reasons you stated for your negative view towards illegals cannot be the "real" reason. Surely you both must have some intrinsic bigotry and racism behind your views ;-). I hope you both are as tired of hearing that inflamatory and abused label as I am. Getting to the point where that accusation is becoming the turn-to approach for those who cannot make a civil argument for the lawllessness that has surrounded this problem from the get go.

[Mark]

"Illegal aliens are foreign intruders".

Garbage! Do people have any clue how many of YOUR ancestors came to the USA illegally? Or came when it was impossible to enforce our immigration laws?

Oh how history repeats itself...

Such xenophobic attitudes will doom the Republican Party to minority status for generations if Conservatives don't stand up to you xenophobes and win this debate. Thank God our two Senators as well as some of our good conservative congressman like Rep. Flake get it.

I recommend that you all go and read some history about the German and Irish immigrants of the 19th century - many of whom came illegally or without US governmental permission. You will see that the Irish were demonized based mostly on British and anti-Catholic bigotries. The Germans stuck to themselves and were slow to adopt English, fermenting unsubstantiated attacks by many 'native' Americans. Now German and Irish Americans represent the largest segment of our population. Where are all those anti-German and anti-Irish protestors today?

Like I previously wrote, most illegal aliens will do anything and risk everything to become an American and I just don’t understand how any of you can blame them.

[Davi Rodrigues]

"Like I previously wrote, most illegal aliens will do anything and risk everything to become an American and I just don’t understand how any of you can blame them."
-------------------------------------------
I don't blame them, I blame people like you. Like I said: come and invite them to your neighborhood where fraud is obviously welcomed and then test the limits of your generosity and tolerance. I keep offering but nobody takes me up on it. looks to me like the demand isn't there, and the supply is. Hypocrisy seems to be a strong characteristic among those who sling the zenophobe label

[Mozart]

Gee, I wonder why Arizona is overrun with invaders

Reading the comments here, I now understand why these treasonous "leaders" keep getting elected term after term

It's not hard to figure out

The braindead sheeple of Arizona seem to be far left ideologues who make excuses for the invasion while their State, their country & their childrens futures go straight to hell

Are you people for real? Tell me, what other country allows this, besides Western countries of course

You people have no idea what's going on, yet you parrot your politicians & your leftist media's tripe

The small elite of the world is turning once independent, responsible nations born out of Western civilization into third world banana republics. Serfs & masters

What do you think will happen to your "oh so hip" progressive values when Americans are second class citizens in their own country? When third worlders are the majority & their ilk are running the show in local offices?

One day your children will look back & ask themselves what the heck happened to their country

And they'll realize mommy & daddy were too politically correct, too "progressive" & too stupid to protect their interests

We have an obligation to leave our future generations a free & viable country

It's people like you who are destroying just that

[Mark]

Davi - don't lie - you do blame them. And what do you mean invite them to my neighborhood? I've had illegals as neighbors - I live in Phoenix for God's sake and I was born and raised in Dallas. Some are salt of the earth! See the xenophobia in your comments? Go to the Deep South and look at the squalor in those all white neighborhoods - go to West Virginia and be shocked - go to South Columbus, Ohio or East St. Louis at look at the decrepit black neighborhoods. Poverty cares not for race.

And Mozart and RDH - don't pretend like you are the real conservatives. Xenophobia is a sickness of the left not the right. Real conservatives are pro-immigration, understand that our immigration laws are broken, and support reasonable solutions to this problem - not the rabid foaming at the mouth xenophobic attacks that come from people like you and Mr. Wong.

Amazing – Arizona’s economy is booming – our unemployment rate is at historical lows and you have the audacity to write that our state is going to hell because of all the invaders – which is your code word for Mexicans. The Republican Party should be an open tent but bigots like you should never be welcome!

[Davi Rodrigues]

"The Republican Party should be an open tent but bigots like you should never be welcome!"
Try and disenfranchise me
My my my...you are the name caller aren't you...

[RDH]

Well Mark,
Since you have chosen to pursue the approach of the Move-On.org folks, I guess this debate is over. You might want to grow up and realize that name-calling is for the simple minded who have no true factual basis for their positions, only emotion. Do have a nice day!

[ron]

Disclosure time: I am a card-carrying Republican.

Two, I live in the part of Phoenix which has lots of illegals.

Three, through community organizing and buiilding relationships with the powers that be we have done lots to address many of the concerns raised here esp. by the CA commentators.

Four, apparently welfare requirements and benefits in CA are much more liberal than in AZ.

ron

[Joe]

Read elsewhere:

"Democracy, immigration, multiculturalism. Pick any two."

[Joe]

Every elected official that voted for NAFTA invited them in. If you're angry, get angry at the members of Congress that ignored the basic rules of economics and didn't tell you this was going to happen. Vote out all of the free traders. Ask them to repeal NAFTA and CAFTA. If not, the system can not be fixed by walls or deportation. People will keep coming. I'm sorry nobody mentioned this in 1994, but that is only way to deal with the issue. It's basic supply and demand.